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Petition: Wrecks are mine. I want aggro rights.

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Myshella Drake Caldari Griffin Shield Unlimited	Posted - 2007.11.19 21:22:00 - [1] Originally by: Estephania Damn, is it hard to understand that: rocks, belt rats, exploration sites etc, etc are there regardless of what any of us will or will not do. Missions are spawned because of my interaction with the agent. Missions are ridiculously profitable? I heard that T2 ships and fittings are rather expensive too. And you lose them from time to time in PvP. Stop acting like the mission area belongs to you, when does the agent say that?. They only told you to go to that area in space and kill some NPCs. FFS ive replied in so many threads about this rubbish, how about reading through these before coming up with the same poor overused excuses for this change. ------------------
Myshella Drake Caldari Griffin Shield Unlimited	Posted - 2007.11.19 21:52:00 - [2] Originally by: Estephania My arguments are better than "deal with that", "cry more", "play WoW' etc. arguments. Tbh I've yet to hear ANY arguments in support of the current situation. are you blind or cannot read? ------------------
Myshella Drake Caldari Griffin Shield Unlimited	Posted - 2007.11.19 22:08:00 - [3] Edited by: Myshella Drake on 19/11/2007 22:10:11 Originally by: Estephania Originally by: Myshella Drake Originally by: Estephania My arguments are better than "deal with that", "cry more", "play WoW' etc. arguments. Tbh I've yet to hear ANY arguments in support of the current situation. are you blind or cannot read? Your extensive collection of threads only shows that there is a problem. It also has several solutions how to help mission runners to protect the wrecks (something that you don't agree with). I have yet to find absolutely ANY arguments in support of the current situation except "adapt or die" or "stfu"; those are strong arguments, but they hardly prove anything. May be a threadnought should be created so that the things would start moving in the right direction My pervious comment still stands...btw you must be a fast reader to get through those threads that quickly..if you even bothered to that is PS. look above..is that clear enough ? ... ty Ki An ------------------
Myshella Drake Caldari Griffin Shield Unlimited	Posted - 2007.11.19 22:39:00 - [4] Originally by: SirMoric Want to do something safe in EVE? Then go salvaging other peoples wrecks. It's FREE, CONCORD protects you and should you loose a ship, it's probably only a cheap destroyer. Who's the whiner? The one who want to salvage what he's killing? Or the one trying to protect his FREE/SAFE income? rgds Please never comment on a profession you obviously know nothing about...Its not free (scan probes, equipment, rigs, ships, skills). Concord dosent protect me... and a 'ninja salvager' probably doesnt use a destroyer as it doesnt suit whats needed, i know i dont...And we arent the ones posting threads whining now are we. And salvaging missions is not as safe as you think...Ever warped in on recon 2/3 ? ------------------
Myshella Drake Caldari Griffin Shield Unlimited	Posted - 2007.11.19 23:00:00 - [5] Originally by: Estephania There are low-risk ISK faucets. High-sec missions are one of them. Invention is another, T2 production is yet another one. Yet you seem so much focused on missions while your alt (may be) puts another newly produced Astarte on the market. I thought this thread was a whine about salvage rights...if you have nothing more on topic to add please go away ------------------
Myshella Drake Caldari Griffin Shield Unlimited	Posted - 2007.11.19 23:15:00 - [6] Edited by: Myshella Drake on 19/11/2007 23:15:29 Originally by: Kruel I could care less about the hisec mission running bears who complain about wreck theft. What ****es me off is when I blast a T2 fitted battleship and don't get the loot because there's 10 haulers/destroyers sitting right next to the guy as he explodes. They take all the loots risk free and I'm left with nothing but a killmail. It's quite frusterating to risk your ships every day, paying war fees, surviving on pvp loot alone... yet not being able to kill the vultures who steal your loot because concord protects them. That's clearly broken. Are you talking about SALVAGE? or LOOT...I think LOOT has an agg timer on it last time i checked...what are you complaining about? ------------------
Myshella Drake Caldari Griffin Shield Unlimited	Posted - 2007.11.19 23:23:00 - [7] Edited by: Myshella Drake on 19/11/2007 23:25:13 Originally by: Estephania To turn missions into a never-ending ISK fountain (so you breeze through lvl 4's), you have to get a bit more than a month of mission running: very good sp, CNR or other faction ship, faction/officer staff and may be some implants. Take into account that you can also lose it (not likely but still), while invention staff stays with you and no chance whatsoever to lose it. What a load of crap, i breeze through lvl 4s with a standard raven and little t2 gear...I only have 12 mil SP on this char and no fansy implants. You must really suck if you need that much gear ------------------
Myshella Drake Caldari Griffin Shield Unlimited	Posted - 2007.11.19 23:36:00 - [8] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Myshella Drake Edited by: Myshella Drake on 19/11/2007 23:15:29 Originally by: Kruel I could care less about the hisec mission running bears who complain about wreck theft. What ***es me off is when I blast a T2 fitted battleship and don't get the loot because there's 10 haulers/destroyers sitting right next to the guy as he explodes. They take all the loots risk free and I'm left with nothing but a killmail. It's quite frusterating to risk your ships every day, paying war fees, surviving on pvp loot alone... yet not being able to kill the vultures who steal your loot because concord protects them. That's clearly broken. Are you talking about SALVAGE? or LOOT...I think LOOT has an agg timer on it last time i checked...what are you complaining about? So this is the story. Pretend that you're in Alliance P and you just killed some poor mission bear's raven. The problem is that jackasses follow Alliance P's members about and steal the LOOT* from the wreck that Alliance P just blew up. Alliance P's member gets no kill rights on said jackasses. Liang So basically this has nothing to do with salvaging and you are arguing that ppl should get kill rights to ppl who LOOT wrecks/cans that isnt theirs...dont the said jackarses get an agg timer on them from LOOTING the wreck, if so your and you corp members/gang can shoot them ------------------
Myshella Drake Caldari Griffin Shield Unlimited	Posted - 2007.11.19 23:42:00 - [9] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Myshella Drake So basically this has nothing to do with salvaging and you are arguing that ppl should get kill rights to ppl who LOOT wrecks/cans that isnt theirs...dont the said jackarses get an agg timer on them from LOOTING the wreck, if so your and you corp members/gang can shoot them Yeah, but I am not Kruel... I just know where (s)he's coming from. IMO, dual wreck ownership, and Unnerf Alliance P! Liang I said you where Kruel? ------------------
Myshella Drake Caldari Griffin Shield Unlimited	Posted - 2007.11.20 00:17:00 - [10] Originally by: Estephania I see no point in arguing any more on this. We'll never agree. Beacuse he just pwnt your senseless argument man, and you cant think of anything to say back ------------------

Myshella Drake Caldari Griffin Shield Unlimited	Posted - 2007.11.20 00:28:00 - [11] Edited by: Myshella Drake on 20/11/2007 00:28:35 Originally by: Estephania Originally by: Myshella Drake Originally by: Estephania I see no point in arguing any more on this. We'll never agree. Beacuse he just pwnt your senseless argument man, and you cant think of anything to say back No, it's because it's time to do some lvl 4's to increase my wallet even more... bye bye...Maybe now the argument will become a little more constructive ------------------
Myshella Drake Caldari Griffin Shield Unlimited	Posted - 2007.11.20 01:21:00 - [12] Originally by: Oldin Kinrod Edited by: Oldin Kinrod on 20/11/2007 01:03:08 Congratulations! You have now bee added to the extensive thread on this topic. Maybe you should read it sometime to get your questions answered. Originally by: The Lobster 6) Make it harder to track you down, from what I understand (This may be faulty logic and I apologise if it is) the prober is probing out your ship, and the chance to successfully probe you depends on part with your ships sensor strength. You could make them use more probes by the use of ECCM. That could work - but what most probers are looking for are drones. Probing ships in deadspace is incredibly hard (though I sure someone will pipe up about being "probed" within minutes of starting a mission). AFAIK because drone use MWDs it increases their sig radius, which makes them easier to find. But I also hear that there aree a crap load of abandoned drones in space, along with shuttles and noob ships. Your right about all the abandoned drones lying around, i rarely use them to find the mission area. Instead i usually scan for ships. Yes they are near impossible to find in the deadspace, But you can pick up ships as they are at the gate entering it, either that or i get hits on haulers who are only interested in looting and already have the wrecks in a nice pile for me :)...The chances of picking up a ship just before it enters the deadspace are slim on their own but beacause there are so many people in the hubs the chances increase by alot, in addition ships might enter the deadspace more than once The only reason this so called 'stealing' is happening is beacuse the numbers are concentrated in areas like motsu, without the hubs its just not profitable to ninja salvage...So if your complaining about salvage rights GET OUT OF MOTSU! ------------------
Myshella Drake Caldari Griffin Shield Unlimited	Posted - 2007.11.20 19:46:00 - [13] Originally by: Estephania General impression is that ppl who defend thieves are thieves themselves, or just plain hate mission runners for some reason (envy may be). Their logic is: if it's bad for mission runners then it's a good thing. Your general impression maybe (As Fd up as it is). I admit it I USED TO BE ONE OF THESE SO CALLED SALVAGE 'THIEVES '. but i know for a fact that many people posting against this (sarcasm) awesomely well thought out proposal (/sarcasm) are not 'Thieves' but players who simply have enough brains to wrap their head around the concept of salvaging and can see that the op is wrong. Oh yes and im sure everyone here is just posting because they just plain hate mission runners too, FFS, get a life Este Im sure the non salvage 'thieves' posting against this a pretty Fing fed up with being abused when they are only trying to explain their argument in a logical and simple way Originally by: Estephania If CCP wants salvaging to become a profession, design it as a profession. Make specialized ships, specialized skills, more specialized modules. As it is now, you need 2-3 weeks to train, fit salvagers, probes and that's it - new profession. The list isn't long, is it? Longer than training to be a miner Originally by: Leemon Originally by: Sendraks People just need to stop being lazy and greedy That comes across as the perfect definition of a salvage thief. cough tracking down a mission area and jumping from wreck to wreck (no tractor) is alot less lazy than sitting back in a tank BS and switching targets every once in a while ------------------
Myshella Drake Caldari Griffin Shield Unlimited	Posted - 2007.11.20 22:26:00 - [14] Edited by: Myshella Drake on 20/11/2007 22:33:32 Theres all this crap about salvaging not being a 'real' profession, but how do you define what is a 'real' profession? if you think its about how many skillpoints you need to have,then thats being pretty naive IMO. Your missing out on one of the big ideas in EVE ,that its a sandbox, a profession is whatever you want it to be in EVE, not some set path you have to walk down or have to have this many SP in. If you think like that then you shouldn't be playing EVE. I can say that salvaging was a full time profession to me at one point, thats how i generated all my income and what i spent most of my time doing. Sure the system is a little barebones right now, thats the whole reason why this "stealing" occuring, because the salvagers are looking for the best way to profit from their profession. They end up in other peoples missions (occasionally), because better opportunities are not in place to make more ISK. If anything salvaging needs a buff,how about the wreck scan group, ive heard some good ideas about real salvage sites spawning and things like that. Make some salvage ships with bonuses, im sure you have heard it before. The only problem with wrecks and salvaging right now is that the two very real professions are colliding because one is less developed than the other The profession of salvaging needs to be distanced and less related to mission running so ppl dont get confused and think its some sort of mission runners entitlement program which is the attitude i see is popular in these threads...THE WRECK IS NOT YOURS.THE SALVAGE COMPONENTS INSIDE (NOT LOOT) ARE NOT YOURS UNTIL YOU HAVE THEM IN YOUR HOLD BY USE OF A SALVAGER I. WHOEVER USES THE SALVAGER I ON THE WRECK SHOULD (AND DOES) OWN THOSE COMPONENTS, NOT SOMEONE WHO CANT BE BOTHERED TO FIT A SALVAGER I AT THE COST OF A HIGH SLOT. ------------------
Myshella Drake Caldari Griffin Shield Unlimited	Posted - 2007.11.21 00:24:00 - [15] Originally by: Estephania Actually I want criminal flagging because insta-popping those salvaging destroyers would be so nice. Waiting for the salvager to come for the revenge in his PvP ship, to meet him in my HAC/Recon - priceless. Rigghhtt, ya know, low sec and 0.0 are there for a reason, if your looking for PVP go there...Afraid you will be pwnd?, you have a HAC and Recon don't you? ------------------
Myshella Drake Caldari Griffin Shield Unlimited	Posted - 2007.11.22 05:20:00 - [16] Edited by: Myshella Drake on 22/11/2007 05:24:18 Originally by: Estephania If we put all this risk-ISK discussion aside, there are two ways to solve the problem: 1) give depth to slavaging, more modules, more skills, may be even some ships 2) alter mission loot tables so that space junk won't be worth more than the mission loot, tweak rigs manufacturing so that salvaged components price would drop And restrict probes from trial account (as was proposed). Tbh trial accounts don't need probing at all, it's just an opening to another sort of farming and exploitation. Okay let me get this absolutely straight...You want to (1) Buff salvaging, more skills mods ships etc, right? ...which in turn leads to alot more time training for those things ,making it harder to be good at am i right? Then you want to (2) 'Nerf' salvaging, making it worth less and not drop as good...is it just me or does that seem like a horribly stupid 'solution'. So basically you are wanting salvagers to spend months training for thier professions and at the end get only a fraction of the ISK they might have earned before...This in turn will lead up to a build up of wrecks because mission runners (or anyone for that matter) are less likely to train extra skills just to salvage...real smart No probing skills on a trail account,Ha!, i can understand if im selfish and greedy and dont want people scanning "my" (not really) mission area but there are lots of new eve players out there that might like to try exploration, you want to limit them. Thats a pretty stupid idea since exloration is going through some upgrades soon, which will make it more of a feature in eve...there might even be a tutorial for it some day...Oh wait there already is FFS 11 pages and so many crap arguments later and nothing worthwhile (generally speaking). Some people have put forward some good ideas for and against...thank you ...BTW just looking though the thread i dont see many /signs, just alot of whines...some petition .......... Asteroid Bandit, Very nice post i totally agree ------------------
Myshella Drake Caldari Griffin Shield Unlimited	Posted - 2007.11.22 08:29:00 - [17] Originally by: Estephania Actually I didn't want 1) and 2), I want 1) OR 2). A ha ha oops my bad, sits in the corner feeling small...I need more coffee Originally by: Estephania Trial ppl wanting to start exploration? Just lol. Trial ppl need probes for 1 thing only - farm wrecks from lvl 4 missions in a user friendly environment. You seriously think everyone is after your mission area?, players like to experiment with the features in the game, they dont care or know about all the skills needed even if you do. The guts of my protest against not giving trials probe skills is that it simply takes away something for them to experiment with and try, there would be nothing i would hate more than to be told about the riches of exploration when i first started on trial, only to find it say you cant train it on my account :( Originally by: Estephania Trial accounts that salvage lvl 4's do it mostly for 1 purpose - farm ISK for GTC to pay for their mains. Trial expired? Not a big deal, another one is created. It's a nice exploit to have only one actual account, pay for it with ISK and not to be even bothered to earn that ISK on that account. That is Eve on easy mode. Trial accounts that salvage lvl 4's are not getting the feeling of the game, they are there to farm and that in turn increases the GTC trade (like there isn't enough metagaming in Eve already). Pfft, i find you comments about these mythical alt trial salvagers amusing. I earn more money doing the level 4 mission myself than i did spending the same time salvaging many of others missions (and it took alot more work). Who is the real farmer here?, who is playing on 'easy mode'?,. Im tired of you mouthing off about my profession (ninja salvaging) like you know what you are talking about, judging from your posts you believe its an easy risk free ISK generating machine...I have news for you, YOU ARE WRONG, until you actually try scanning salvage out and hopping about collecting it and do what you seem to know so much about, then i might take you seriously BTW training to use a salvager, salvage ship and decent scanning skills takes a little more than 14 days thanks ------------------
Myshella Drake Caldari Griffin Shield Unlimited	Posted - 2007.11.22 20:29:00 - [18] Originally by: Minimum Provision They also need to make wrecks findable through probes too. Right now the only way I can do my chosen profession is by finding other people near wrecks. True you cant scan for wrecks directly. A way to scan out wrecks would be welcomed by many, as it already has its own (non functional) scan group in the list...But if you look at it from a technical standpoint it would be hard to implement. Think about it like this, you sit in motsu and use the directional scanner, 360 sweep maximum range. I bet the results are absoultly choca with wrecks, small, meduim, large...Now think about every single one of those with a sig strength that has to be calculated each time you scan with a probe. and then you have a huge list of results to sift through as well, im no expert but i belive it will cause a whole heap of extra lagg. well thats just my 2 ISK anyway ------------------
Myshella Drake Caldari Griffin Shield Unlimited	Posted - 2007.11.23 08:47:00 - [19] Originally by: Estephania To Asteroid Bandit: A fun part is PvP, but you can't PvP without ships, and the standards for what is considered a decent ship has risen steadily. May be 2 years ago, you could go out with a cruiser. Actually, I remember even threads about pirating cruisers (laughable now, isn't it), or cruisers for 0.0 PvP. NO not laughable at all, many pirates use crusiers AND smaller ships today, they work just fine .Where did you get that bullsht conclusion from? Originally by:* Estephania Now, everyone and their dog flies T2. Small scale engagement nowadays is impossible without being over saturated with T2 staff (and desirable with some less-traditional mini-maxed setups). I won't go into the state of PvP atm and how much ISK you need to keep pace with the T2 frenzy. Bottom line is: you need massive ISK to stop being a meatshield or near useless in PvP. Again a load of crap. Part of being a good PVPer is fitting your ship so its not only effective but CHEAP as well. Anyone who knows anything about pvp knows it pointless to fit your ship with all the best T2 gear if you know you will lose it sooner or later (probably sooner). people who do fit their ships with alot of T2 are generally very specialized people who know how to use it right on their ship and in the right situations. Originally by: Estephania It will encourage PvP where earlier there was no PvP, how's that a bad thing? How a mission runner can compete with a salvager for a wreck without PvP? Ummmmm scoop it up before the salvager does? Originally by: Estephania My proposal (and some other proposals too) will keep missions profitable enough for many players to finance their fun part in Eve AND encourage more player interaction in the form of PvP Ive said it before, If you want interaction in the form of pvp (between ships) then go to low sec and 0.0 where that sort of interaction belongs. It seems to me that you want to engage in pvp, but in your safe little mission runner world instead of growing some low slots and heading out of high sec ------------------
Myshella Drake Caldari Griffin Shield Unlimited	Posted - 2007.11.25 00:15:00 - [20] Originally by: Estephania At least they should place the flagging until the mission is active; you complete the mission and the wrecks are free for all. So how will this system work with salvaging OUTSIDE OF YOUR MISSIONING WORLD, what about ownership in belts and plexs...Do mission runners get some sort of special rights? Originally by: Estephania Salvaging during battles is stupid, Why?, i do it in my mission raven all the time, as do many others. Originally by: Estephania the whole point in salvaging is making use of a space garbage, which don't become garbage 1 sec after it is created, and the battle still going on. Who made up that rule? Originally by: Estephania It can become garbage when it is left behind (mission completed). Then you can have a destroyer race with a salvager, whoever gets there 1st - wins. A fantasy situation...The mission runner will simply salvage before they despawn (complete) the mission. Even if they did despawn it and go after the salvage with a destroyer then they must be probed out first, which is more difficult because of the smaller ship size, also who will be able to tractor the wrecks?, the mission runner?...hardly a fair race IMO ...And i thought there was more than enough evidence against this to kill the whole agg timer idea and to kill this thread for good, guess some people just dont want to accept it ------------------

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